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Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I am conscious of the time, so I shall confine my remarks to issues that have not been raised in the generality of today's debate, which has been extremely constructive. I welcome the Bill. I was privileged to serve on the Joint Committee that conducted pre-legislative scrutiny. The consensus was remarkable, except for one issue that I shall touch on in a few moments. On that, I am with the Government rather than with my Committee.
We received some moving testimony from victims' groups, which brought home to me the depth of feeling about these personal tragedies, particularly about the lack of ability to right the wrong. People in those groups faced many years of anguish, mainly because of the lack of ability to bring successful prosecutions at the corporate level. Employers' groups have also welcomed the Bill, recognising the importance of having it on the statute book to help companies that are indulging in best practice corporate governance in their health and safety regimes. They are doing the right thing and only the bad apples will get caught.
Somewhat against the flow of debate but in common with Conservative Front Benchers, I believe that individual liability provisions should not be built into the Bill. Speaking as chairman of the all-party group on corporate governance, my concern about going down the individual liability route is that we might find ourselves tying up major corporates in an excessive amount of red tape and weighing them down with an obsession with seeking to protect themselves from risks that they are already dealing with in most cases- [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham) takes issue with that-
Mr. Clapham: The hon. Gentleman has already heard from various contributions that only a small minority of corporation managers fail to follow proper safety practices. If the Bill included provisions on named directors, I believe that it would lead to a much better safety culture, which would result in fewer accidents down the line at work. It is not simply a matter of revenge, but of how we stimulate a whole safety culture.
Mr. Dunne: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but we already have the legislative framework that allows us to pursue directors who are grossly negligent. The downside to the benefit of providing an umbrella and blanket approach is the burden that it would place on all the good companies that conduct themselves properly. That is a serious consideration about which the Government and directors' groups are concerned. I was about to cite a previous Home Secretary who felt that such a provision
"would increase regulatory burdens, stifle entrepreneurial activity or create a risk averse culture".
That would drive good directors out of high risk companies and, potentially, good companies out of this country.
Ian Stewart: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Dunne: No, I am afraid that my time is very limited.
The Bill needs to be improved in four areas. We have touched on the scope of the Bill, and the contradictions were well illustrated by my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Jeremy Wright). Partial immunity for the public sector is a matter of degree, and the Select Committee debated the question of the emergency services having some immunity for some of their actions, as otherwise some people might not be rescued because the members of the emergency service had been instructed not to save lives. That would be a dotty state of affairs and the Government have got that right.
However, the Government have introduced several other exemptions that are illogical and nonsensical. Why should those responsible for statutory inspections, such as the Food Standards Agency, be exempted from the provisions in the Bill? Why should those responsible for inspecting child protection institutions be exempted? Why should the probation service be exempted from the provisions? I urge hon. Members to consider those points in Committee.
The issue of undertakings has been raised by other Members. In particular, the hon. Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Rooney) talked about subcontractors. It is wrong that unincorporated bodies will not be covered by this legislation in the same way as corporate bodies will be. I speak as a partner in a farming business that is unincorporated. If we had a health and safety issue, I should be capable of being sued in the same way as if the business were incorporated.
We have heard much debate on the senior manager test. I suspect that much of the discussion in Committee will be on that issue and how one defines it, in this complicated corporate world of global companies in which decisions are taken at many levels.
On the issue of territoriality, we have touched on the question of Scotland, but we have not mentioned territoriality beyond the British Isles. The Select Committee raised that issue, because several British companies operate offshore and outside British territorial waters. We have heard about the fishing industry, for example, and we should be able to pursue corporates if a negligent incident happens there. We should also consider whether the Bill should extend to British companies operating in the EU. I commend consideration of that point to the Committee.
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